The Aaron Papers www.the-aaron-papers.net
1. Some Muslim - Christian interaction-
From
Isk
Joseph
bhai wrote:
"Out
of all the signs that Jesus could have given about himself, he chose to
give the sign of Jonah: This generation is an evil generation; it seeks a
sign but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah. (Luke
11:29, Matthew 12:39, Matthew 16) Jonah was swallowed alive by a whale and
remained in its belly alive for three days. For Jesus to have properly
fulfilled the prophecy, he would need to enter the tomb alive and come out
alive. Why should Jesus give this, of all signs, if he was to die and be
resurrected? "
Why
do you simply assume that Jesus was referring to Jonah being in the belly
of the whale? The sign of Jonah was that he preached to the people of
Nineveh, Gentiles, who repented in sackcloth and ashes, and were saved
from the impending judgement, because they received the message of God,
given to them through the prophet, and mixing it with faith, acted
appropriately by repenting of their sins. But the Jews of the day beleived
that only they were eligible to receive God's forgiveness and blessings,
because they had the covenants and law and were descended from Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob. And so also, within one generation of Jesus, many
Gentiles came in and received the blessings of the covenants, by faith and
obedience, thus provoking the Jews of the day to jealousy. This was the
sign of Jonah given to that generation.
But
what is a sign? On the road there is a sign, saying "Lahore 50
km". So you can see that the sign is not exactly the same as that to
which it points. A flag is a sign, an ensign, a symbol of the country it
belongs to, but it is not the same as that country, it only points us to
it, or reminds us of it.
Joseph
also wrote: "Jesus was the Messiah, the fulfillment of Old
Testament prophecies. He frequently made reference to himself as the
suffering servant foretold in the Book of Isaiah (Matthew 8:17 &
Isaiah 53:4; Luke 2:30 & Isaiah 52:10; Luke 22:37 & Isaiah 53:12).
The Messiah of the Old Testament was, however, promised by God that he
would not be killed (Psalms 34:19, Isaiah 53:10). How was it, therefore,
that the Jews had succeeded in killing the Messiah if Jesus died on the
cross?"
It
was not promised that Messiah would not die, but only that he would not
see corruption. Lying in a tomb from Friday dusk to Sunday early dawn, it
is not likely that a body will see corruption, or become decomposed within
that time.
And
that Jesus suffered at the hands of the Jews, was that not the meaning of
the 'suffering servant'?
And
Jesus had cleansed the temple and occupied it, sitting there teaching the
words of God, and forgiving sins and healing the sick, thereby putting
himself a man in the place of the LORD, Ha Shem. But somehow he offended
the powerbase or the position or the theology of the Jews, who therefore
sought to kill him. And so sad, as surely then he would have brought in
the Kingdom, but his own people rejected him.
But
let us look at the story of Joseph, son of Jacob, rejected by his
brothers, who sought to kill him, but Joseph went on to become a king (of
sorts, he was a governor in Egypt, I suppose). And when his brothers came
to recognise him in the end, whom they had at first rejected, then they
were truly humbled and became reconciled. This also was a sign.
You
also wrote: "Why did Jesus die before the other two who were
crucified with him even though the legs of the other two were broken to
hasten death? (John 19:32)"
Jesus
laid down his life of his own accord, no one took it from him. He was
truly 'slain for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities'. But
remember also that he had been flogged early in the morning, and beaten by
the Roman soldiers, and had been too weak even to carry his cross that
another was found to carry it for him.
<****>
From
Wafa 2-9
Isk
You said Jesus laid down his
life of his own accord, no one took it from him. He was truly 'slain for
our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities'
Was Jesus sent to be
crucified?
Peter and the two sons of Zebedee were with Jesus Christ before the elders
of the people and the chief priests came to take him to crucify him. Jesus
at this point talked to Peter and the two sons of Zebedee as in Matthew
26:38 " Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even
unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me". Then Jesus went a
little further way from them and prayed to God as in Matthew 26:39 "
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O
my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not
as I will, but as thou wilt".
It is very clear from the above verse in Matthew 26:39 that Jesus had no
intention of dying. In this verse it is shown that Jesus was praying
strongly (Matthew mentions that Jesus repeated these prayer three time) to
have this death removed from him. Had Jesus Christ been sent to be
crucified he would not have hesitated to be killed at all. When I relate
this to my Christian friends, they tell me that this hesitation comes from
the flesh side of him (in other words he was tempted), and that his soul
which is godly does not have this hesitation at all. When we look at
Matthew 26:38 we see that Jesus is contradicting this idea by saying,
"My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even
unto death" (Matthew 26:38). He himself says that it really his soul
that is hesitating and not his body. These are Jesus' own words.
God Answered the prayers of Jesus
Christ:
After Jesus made the above mentioned prayer he was answered by God
according to Hebrews 5:7 " Who in the days of his flesh, when he had
offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him
that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he
feared". These words clearly show that when Jesus was praying
strongly to God, God would grant him his request. The word " heard in
that he feared" (Hebrews 5:7) mean that God granted him what he
requested. So the above verse shows that when Jesus asked of God to "
let this cup pass from" (Matthew 26:39) him, God respond to his
prayer and saved him from death or crucifixion.
Why Would Jesus Have to Die on
the Cross?According
to the Christian doctrine, Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for our
sins. The idea here is that every human is born with sins, or that all
humans will sin, and therefore it was necessary that someone as pure as
Jesus would be the crucified to nullify these sins. The question is; why
does anyone have to die for our sins when God, the All-Merciful, could as
easily give us forgiveness if we ask for it? Isn't God the one who makes
the rules? Why does He have to make someone suffer for our sins or for
someone else's sins? Isn't that unjust of Him? According to the Bible the
way to redemption could be obtained without the need for sacrifice. The
Bible says:
*
Ezekiel 18:20 " The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall
not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the
iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him,
and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him".
* Ezekiel 18:21 " But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that
he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful
and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die".
Clearly
the soul that sins shall die. Clearly that no one shall bear the iniquity
(sins) of others. So Jesus cannot bear the sins of others either. If one
is righteous then it shall be upon him, and if one commits a sin then it
shall be upon him, and not on Jesus. Finally, the way to repentance and
forgiveness is by turning from all sins, doing what is right, and keeping
the commandments.
Also we see the same message given by Solomon. He says in the book of
Ecclesiastes 12:13 " Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of
man". This is the whole message, and this is the conclusion of
messages. It is that one should fear God, and keep the commandments, and
nothing else.
Again in 2 Chronicles 7:14 " If my people, which are called by my
name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from
their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their
sin, and will heal their land". This clearly states that to seek
forgiveness from God we have to humble ourselves, pray and seek God, and
turn away from wickedness.
Finally the Bible says in Samuel 15:22 " And Samuel said, Hath the
LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the
voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to
hearken than the fat of rams". This clearly states that obeying God
is better that sacrifice whether this sacrifice is of objects, animals, or
humans, or any other type. What God likes is for us to heed and obey Him,
and if that is what God likes then it is not of Him to come later and
change his mind, and change his ways. God says in the Holy Quran,“
Verily God is All-Knowing, All-Wise” (Ch 9: Vr 28).
Now that we have seen this, Christians say that Jesus has changed some of
these laws. Let's look at what Jesus says. In Matthew 5:17 " Think
not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to
destroy, but to fulfil". Jesus clearly states that he was not sent to
abolish the law, the law of which had already existed. So what is
mentioned above cannot be discounted. Then Jesus continues to say, in
Matthew 5:18 and 19 " For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and
earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till
all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least
commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the
kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall
be called great in the kingdom of heaven". Jesus here states that not
even as much as a dot (tittle) shall not pass from the law. Every thing is
kept the way it was. That is why the previous laws cannot be removed or
discarded, and those who willfully change these laws " he shall be
called the least in the kingdom of heaven".
Wafa
From
Lewieke
1.
If Jezus was not to be crucified, how could he know he was going to die
then? ("And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and
prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me:
nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.")
2.
Jezus didn't want to erase the law of the Old Testament, but he showed us
on a number of occassions that we shouldn't follow the law blindly. For
example, by stating that one IS allowed to labour on sabbath-day, and by
preventing an adulterous woman from being stoned to death. For his message
is LOVE and FORGIVENESS. They surpass everything, even, on occasions, the
law.
<****>
From
Wafa 2-10-02
Peace,
He
knew he was going to be killed because he knew what the jews had for him,
they never believed him and tried to kill him as they killed many other
prophets before him.
Jesus
orders Christians to follow the Old Testament's laws: "Do
not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament)
or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I
tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest
letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from
the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew
5:17-18)" It
is quite clear from these verses from the New Testament that Jesus peace
be upon him did honor the Old Testament and did say that every single
"letter" of it has to be honored, followed and fulfilled
Is
it rational for you that Jesus would forgive an adulteress and kill her
child????!!
Jesus
killed the adulteress' children:
"So
I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit
adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I
will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know
that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you
according to your deeds.
Of
course adultery is punishable in Islam, But I wonder why did Jesus kill
the woman's innocent children? What did they do? All this to prove
something to the Churches?! I thought you should love your enemies and
forgive them! It's not like the woman had killed anybody!! Let alone her
children didn't have any part of Jesus and their mother! There is no
record in the Bible of these children committing any crimes or sins!
The
Bible, with all due respect to Christians, is ambiguous and
self-contradicting! There is always room for finding excuses for
wickedness as some extreme Christians do such as the Homosexuals and the
Sexually Liberated. There is no solid ground for anything in the Bible. When
you think you found an answer for a question or an issue, you can almost
always find a contradiction or conflicting verse that nullifies it.
Take the following example:
Is
circumcision allowed in the Bible? Jesus says Yes. Paul says No. Go
figure!! .
your
second question:
To
your comfort of heart No, I can not!!!
Wafa
From
Lewieke 2-10
"So
I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit
adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I
will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know
that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you
according to your deeds."
May
I ask you where you found these phrases?
Furthermore,
while it may be true that there are contradictions in the Bible, exactly
the same goes for the Qur'an! Allah even replaces verses by other verses.
So let's be honest with each other: both our religions - like all other
religions - have some weak spots.
From
Isk
Dear
Wafa,
Lord
Jesus could have saved himself, and called upon angels to defend himself
from arrest, and from crucifixion, but he did not. When he prayed 'Not my
will but thine be done', he was accepting that it was part of God's plan
for him to die - certainly a very hard thing to accept for one who loves
life; he gave the untimate submission to God's will. And remember
crucifixion is a very painful way to die.
You said Jesus laid down his
life of his own accord, no one took it from him. He was truly 'slain for
our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities'
The
above is a quotation from Isaiah ch.53. It pictures Jesus as the
scapegoat, being taken out of the city, to remove sins from the worshipper
who brought the sacrifice (in the temple, in accordance with the Law of
Moses). Even one of the High Priests of the day said that Jesus must die
to save the rest of the nation (from further oppression by the Roman
occupying armies). And after the events the Christians came to understand
Jesus' death as an atoning sacrifice (in analogy to the sin sacrifice of
the Mosaic law) because in a very real sense when we identify ourselves
with Jesus in his death, we can come to have a clean conscience, which is
perhaps the most important thing, to cleanse us of the guilty feelings of
our personal sin. The Christians further believed that baptism, as a going
down into the waters (death) is a means of personally identifying with
Jesus in his death and resurrection (raise up to a new life).
Furthermore,
the Christians believed that Jesus in dying gained a decisive victory over
the enemy Shaitan, whose minions bind human souls in sins and habitual
wrongdoing, and inflicting them with sicknesses, depressions &c. This
is thought to be in fulfillment of the prophecy given by God when Adam and
Eve were sent out of the garden, "The Seed of the woman shall crush
your head, but you shall bruise his heel." Meaning that Satan thought
he had finally won over God by manipulating the people to kill the
Messiah, but in doing so Satan himself was undone, because Jesus had shown
complete submission and obedience to God, he had kept the Covenant
completely and perfectly, and so Satan could find no grounds on which to
accuse Jesus of any wrongdoing. (Note also Orion in the stars shows a
victorious hunter standing on the head of the serpent, while the serpent
is biting his heel.)
It
is also thought by the Christians that Jesus' death was necessary to
extinguish the righteous anger of God on all the sins of man (the law
demands a penalty to be paid). Also the Mosaic procedures of sacrifice
teach us that the blood of the sacrifice was taken to cleanse the altar
itself. In the same way the Christians believe that Jesus took his blood
to heaven to cleanse the altar before God's throne. And also that Jesus'
blood is available by faith as the spiritual power to cleanse our
repentant hearts.
That's
why the Christians believe that Jesus' death had the power of atoning
sacrifice. Maybe in some ways God can forgive without it, but in Christian
belief it is neccessary to have a clean conscience, and to have healing
from the blood of that sacrifice (releasing the power of heavenly life).
It's true that God does not want sacrifices of animals, because they can't
take away our sins; in the Christian belief it is Jesus' sacrifice that is
the only one accepted by God, and the other ones taught in the Law of
Moses were there to teach us the principles involved. And God wanted to
make himself known as the God who would give all, even his own life for
the people, in the greatest love.
The
Christians also believe that Jesus' resurrection from death gained a
victory over death, which was the ultimate penalty for sin, and the bond
around all human souls since the time of Adam's sin (our first father).
Jesus was the only person who raised himself up from death (though this
miracle had been done before by some of the prophets) - and death could
not hold him because he was himself without sin, and had no human father
by which he could inherit sin ('the sins of the fathers shall be visited
onto the children...' Exodus ch. 20).
While
it's true that Jesus' disciples did not see things this way before Jesus
died, it was afterwards that they came to understand, in the light of the
Torah and writings, and everything that Jesus had taught them. It was
Apostle Paul who wrote many of these things down for our learning today.
So
I hope you can understand me now because I am trying to explain the
Christian beliefs to you to answer your questions.
Yours
sincerely,
Iskandar.
From
Isk
Dear
Wafa,
You
quoted from the Book of revelation (the final book in the New Testament),
as follows:
"So
I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit
adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I
will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know
that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you
according to your deeds."
This
is from the famous passages called the letters to the seven churches. It
is Jesus addressing the Christians through prophecy. He was disciplining
the Christians who knew better how to live, but were going astray with
different sins. This is to show us that it is serious when you learn the
Christian faith to then not follow it. It also shows us that Jesus wanted
to make his church a community of holy and obedient people, a special
people. It would seem that Jesus would not necessarily discipline people
outside of his church quite so strongly. There are other examples of such
deaths in the church though, such as Annanias and Saphira, who lied to the
apostles about money they were offering to the church community (in the
Acts of the Apostles). They were both struck down dead on the spot,
becasue they knew exactly what they were doing, and did not repent of it.
The result was that the other members of the community were more careful
to live in pure obedience to God, becasue they saw that God is serious and
powerful.
The
adultery mentioned was perhaps physical or perhaps referring to following
some teachings against the Christian beliefs ('spiritual adultery'), so
'her children' may have referred to those who followed the teachings of
that particular woman. It's also Christian belief that God will always
give plenty of warning to anyone before he disciplines them.
So
I hope that explains to you the context of that quotation.
From
Rick 2-11-02
Hello
Wafa,
Once
again you are critiqueing Christianity on Muslim terms. This is bound to
happen when a person of one faith begins evaluating another. However, you
might come to understand Christianity better if instead of trying to prove
it wrong you seek to understand it from a Christian perpective. This
doesn't mean that you have to agree with it, just try to see it from our
point of view.
Your
last post raised a number of important issues. Let me address just a few.
You
wrote, "The Quran doesn't contradict it’s self, believing that
Allah’s book is not perfect is believing that God himself is not perfect
not almighty or al knowing ." And then, "The bible contains the
word of God but man’s hand distorted it intentionally /unintentionally.
God is al knowing and doesn’t make errors whereas the bible contains a
lot of errors and contradictions that’s enough proof that the bible is
not all God’s word and therefore can not be a reliable source of
guidance."
This
seems like a contradiction to me. First you say that because God is
perfect his book must be perfect. Then you say the Bible contains the word
of God. Then you say it has been distorted. Then you say parts of the
Bible are God's word and parts are errors. Using the same reasoning,
couldn't we say that the Qur'an has been corrupted
intentionally/unintentionally? If God has protected the Qur'an from
corruption, why hasn't he protected the Bible if it also contains his
word?
I'll
skip over your comments concerning the Trinity, sin, and the atonement,
though those are very worthwhile subjects to address. They are bigger
issues than I have time to tackle!
Instead,
let me address your comment that "No miracle attributed to Jesus
signifies that he was God-Incarnate." Again, this is where the
difference between the Christian/Muslim worldview comes into play. In my
experience and in accordance with what you have been posting, the proof of
the Qur'an's authenticity is its miraculous nature. I get the sense from
this that "miraculous" is evidence of "divine origin"
for a Muslim. Is this correct?
It
isn't necessarily the case for Christians. Our belief that Jesus is God
incarnate does not come from the fact that he did miracles. Rather, our
belief that Jesus is the self-representation of God comes from Jesus' own
teaching ("He who has seen me has seen the Father," "I and
my Father are one," etc.) and especially the nature of God that we
see revealed in Jesus (including but not limited to the miracles he
performed). Miracles really have very little to do with our doctrine of
incarnation. This is why I have suggested that you try to understand these
doctrines from our perspective rather than presenting arguments against
Christianity that reflect an Islamic rather than Christian method of
understanding.
Warmly
in Christ,
Rick
From
Isk 2-11
Dear
Wafa,
You
wrote:
"There
is no difference between Muslims and Christians on the imperfection of
human nature, the necessity for atonement, the pursuit of salvation
and the primacy of God’s grace and forgiving qualities. The difference,
however, relates to the way of seeking forgiveness and strength to
“overcome sin”. The Qur’an teaches that God is both just and
Merciful. But since He created humankind and knows its weaknesses, He
does not require bloodshed to forgive.."
You
say that Muslims believe that atonement is necessary, and also you
say that shedding of blood is not necessary. Christians see the
shedding of blood as the atonement, what do Muslims believe is
'atonement'?
And,
what is the meaning of the sacrifices made at the Eid-ul-Azha (bukri eid)?
Where did this practice originate from? What is its history? What is its
significance? Why is blood shed at this festival?
From
Aasim
Assalamu
aleikom,
Inshalla,
this will help:
|
Eid-ul-Adhia is a festival
that is celebrated on the 10th of Dhul Hijja and marks the close of
the Hajj ceremony or Pilgrimage to the Ka'aba. |
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A
Muslim is required to perform the pilgrimage at least once in his
lifetime, provided that he can afford the cost of the journey, is
not indebted to anyone and is not otherwise prevented from
performing the Haj. Those who unable to perform the pilgrimage join
in the Eid-ul-Adhia ceremony at their own places. |
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The
Eid is celebrated with great solemnity and reverence everywhere.
Like Eid-ul-Fitr, Muslims make preparations several days before the
festival. The animals to be sacrificed are bought well before the
Eid day by those who can afford to do so. These animal should be
free from all physical defects and should be fully grown. In case of
sheep, goat or lamb, one animal suffices for one household, while a
cow or a camel can be shared by upto seven families. |
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On
the day of the Eid, Muslims assemble in the Eid-gah or in the large
mosques of the town for Eid Prayer Service. The Eid Prayer is
comprised of two Raka'as and offered in the same manner as
Eid-ul-Fitr. Generally no breakfast is served on this Eid, and those
who offer sacrifice do not eat anything until after they have
sacrificed the animal. After the prayer the Imam delivers a sermon
in which he explains the significance of the festival, giving the
details of the sacrifices offered by Abraham, his wife Hager and
their son Ishmael. Returning by a different route and singing the
praise of Almighty Allah, Muslim worshippers return home and
slaughter their animals. On Eid day, Muslims recite the praise of
Allah in the following words: |
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Allah ho Akbar, Allah ho
Akbar |
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La illaha illa Allah, wa
Allah ho Akbar, Allah ho Akbar
|
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wa Lillah hil Hamd |
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Translation: |
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Allah
is the Greatest, Allah is the Greatest |
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There
is none worthy of worship except Allah and |
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Alah
is the Greatest, Allah is the Greatest and |
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All
praise belongs to Allah |
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The
person who offers the sacrifice is allowed to use a portion of the
meat, the remainder is distributed among the relatives, friends,
neighbors and the poor. The animals my be sacrificed on the day of
the Eid or the two days that follow. Millions of animals are
slaughtered all over the world on this occasion. The skins of the
slaughtered animals are sold and the proceeds given to different
charities. |
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Philosophy of the Sacrifice: |
|
According
to the teachings of Islam, the sacrifice of animals is not offered
to appease offended deities nor to win their favor as an atonement
of sins as was the case of many other nations. The Holy Quran made
it quite clear by stating: |
|
"Neither the flesh nor
the blood of your sacrifices reaches God, but it is the righteous
motive underlying them that reaches Him." (22:37) |
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In
other words, the slaughtering of animals is a symbolic expression
whereby a Muslim declares his readiness to lay down his own life and
everything he owes for the sake of God Almighty. The animal that is
sacrificed really stands for the animal in man himself.
This
information was obtained at islam.com
Personally,
I do not see the Gospels or the New Testament as God's word. I do
not say this to be antagonistic, I just wanted to share my own
insights.
Personally,
and as a Muslim, I see the Gospels as a "testimony" of
men, and the NT as the teachings of Paul, not Jesus. Even as a
Christian I approached the Bible in this manner. I have never
considered the Gospels and the NT as the "word" of God,
but rather, a dispensation of the ministry of Jesus and the
teachings of Paul, all fallible and quite normal human beings.
Having
been a Christian, and am now a Muslim, I can understand how Rick
would assume two different "world views." But I have to
dissagree with this point. We all look towards God with the eyes of
an individual person, not the eyes of a "Christian" or
"Muslim" or "Jew." We each seek and understand
God in our own time and experience(reality), not by the dictums of
any religion(no religion can dictate our experience of God). I may
look towards God differently than another Muslim, does this mean one
of us is not Muslim? Certainly not. I think this is a use of
over-generalization or stereotypical thinking. I don't think it is
all bad, per say. It has always been easier to group people into a
"class" or "identity" in order to try to reach
an understanding of their beliefs. Unfortunately, this categorizing
is often the first stumble!
There
are many problems that need solving. I hope one day we may all come
together as a member of our faith (Jew,Muslim,Christian), using our
own and unique perspectives to solve these problems. Lets take a
problem like illiteracy. I, obviously, cannot solve this problem by
myself. So if I find a very talented teacher who happens to be a Jew
or Christian, will I pass up the opportunity to enlist their help in
this cause? No way! I put aside our differences of personal beleif
and work with them to solve a greater and more immediate problem:
children and adults who can't read. Of course, I would pray that
this teacher would become a Muslim...and that teacher would probably
pray that I would convert...or perhaps, this is God's way of
bringing us together to solve a common problem without worrying at
all if anybody "converts.". Allah(swt) knows best, and is
the best of planners.
I
hope this finds you all in good spirits and health.
-Aasim
PS.
Sister
Wafa, I have tried to contact you via email, please let me know if
my email reached you. If not, I will look into it. My email service
has been less than reliable these past few weeks. But I can't
complain about a free service! |
From
Lewieke 2-13
Dear
Wafa,
There
are many places in the bible where it is said that Jezus is the son of
God. Probably the most explicit one is Luke 3:22, where God says about
Jezus: "Thou art my Son, the beloved one". (I don't have an
English bible, so I'm translating from my Dutch bible.) If Jezus is God's
Son, he must be divine as well.
But
now you will probably say that this is another corrupted passage in the
bible. That makes it so difficult to debate with (some) muslims: they can
always say that a certain bible passage has been corrupted.
From
Isk
27. "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them,
and they follow me."
28. "I give them eternal life, and they shall
never perish; no one can snatch
them out of my hand."
29. "My Father, who has given them to me, is
greater than all; no one can snatch
them out of my Father's hand.." (John 10:29).
Exactly!
When you are in God's hand, you are also in Jesus' hand, and vice versa. The
hands are the same, and they belong to the same person!
'In
Jesus Christ, the fullness of the Godhead is made known'.
'God
was in Christ, reconcilling the world to Himself'.
That
is the Christians' belief, and the Christians' hope.
That
is the Christian path: to listen to His voice and follow Him, as obedient
sheep.
From
Wafa 2-14
Lewieke,
How
many sons does the Bible tell us that God Almighty has?
-
Jacob is God's son and
firstborn: "Israel is my
son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.
-
Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the
throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be
my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.
-
Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for
I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."
Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?).
-
Adam is the son of God "Adam,
which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.
-
Common
people
(you and me) are the sons of God: "Ye
are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1. "For
as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of
God" Romans 8:14. "But
as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of
God, [even] to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12. "That
ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in
the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as
lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15. "Behold,
what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should
be called the sons of God: ... now are we the sons of God" 1
John 3:1-2. "When the
morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for
joy?" Job 38:7. "Again
there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before
the LORD," Job 2:1. "Now
there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before
the LORD," Job 1:6. "when
the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men," Genesis
6:4. "That the sons of God
saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair" Genesis 6:2
As
we can see, the use of the term "son of God" when describing
normal human beings was not at all an uncommon practice among Jesus'
people.
As
we can understand from these and many other verses like them, "son of
God" in the language of the Jews was a very innocent term used to
describe a loyal servant of God.
The
quran says
2.116
They say: "(Allah) hath begotten
a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the
heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him.
3.59
The similitude of Jesus before
Allah is as that of Adam; He
created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And
he was.
1. Say: He is Allah, the One;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.
Wafa
From
Wafa
Again
another contradiction here
was
it Jacob or Ibrahim the first born ?
From
Aaron 2-14-02
Aasim
Ahmad,
Peace.
In
response to post#1-Though I am sure you have had other responses to this
post, with no offense intended, I will add mine to the others.
(You
said) There is little doubt that although the three Abrahamic faiths have
common roots in history, there is a real and tangible tension between the
three regarding the validity of each religions belief in God and how
salvation in acheived.
(acr
Aasim, I would agree that there is a commonality in all three of these
religions and that commonality is clearly the Abrahamic Covenant. I
believe that it is just that simple. Then in addition to that, I believe
that these three religions might also have a commonality in "how
salvation is achieved". That commonality for the salvation of each of
these religions would be the matchless grace of Almighty God. So what we
are saying is this—The Abrahamic Covenant unifies Judaism, Islam, and
Christianity, and God’s grace saves those whom He wills to save. If we
could agree on these two points, I think that the discussion could be much
simpler for all of us.)
(You
said) This tension, which sometimes manifests itself into open conflict,
is sometimes unavoidable.
(acr
Aasim, "unavoidable" tension in what way? Unavoidable for you?
Or unavoidable for me? It would seem that the conflict would belong to
those who seen to be having so many problems with the other’s religion.
Might we conclude that the majority of the conflicts within all religions,
is generally the result of a deficiency in understanding? I have been here
only a short time, but it would appear that many from the Islamic
community, like yourself, have some serious problem with both Judaism and
Christianity.)
(You
said) I belong to an Islamic movement that has many goals, and one of
those goals is to dispell the theory of the Trinity and Ressurection. It
is referred to as the "Breaking of the Cross".
(acr
Aasim, without the Cross, there would be no resurrection, and without the
resurrection, there would be no Christian Church. Though I am sure that
you know that by the above statement, you are saying that one of your
stated goals is to destroy the Christian Church. Now since the Muslim
movement has been trying to destroy the Christian Church since their
beginning in the seventh century, and because I was already fully aware of
that point in the Islamic ideology, your statement does not really
surprise me. I might also add this, that after nearly two thousand years
of Christian history, one should fully recognize that it does not really
matter what some may want. Thankfully, God is still in charge of
everything. And Aasim, that Islamic ideology happens to be one of the
major differences in our religions. What I mean by that, is that the
Christian Church does not base its legitimacy on the presence or absence
of any other denomination or religion, but on the revealed fulfillment of
God’s promise to Abraham. We should also understand that Christianity is
only a fractional part of God’s universal reconciliation—as are
Judaism and Islam. As I stated earlier, religious security can be achieved
only through a thorough understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant.)
May
The Most Holy God—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of
Jacob, guide all of us to His blessed truths-
Aaron
From
Aasim 2-14
Peace
to all,
Aaron,
You
post some very legitimate and thought provoking statements.
I
cannot dispel the fact that there are basic and very real theological
differences between the three faiths (Islam, Judaism, Christianity) where
salvation is concerned. Because of these differences, some tension between
the faiths is unavoidable.
Some
people are more passive than others, and can easily look the other way
when the theology of their religion is challenged. Others are more
aggressive and outspoken, this is when the tension manifests into open
debate or conflict.
When
we are presented with a situation like this, it is our choice to stay and
argue, or to politely dismiss ourselves from the situation until things
cool down.
I
cannot agree that the three faiths can be truely unified. How can Islam be
truely unified with Christianity? In Islam, the Trinity is shirk, denial
of the oneness of God. It is like saying, we will unify water and oil.
Tawhid and Trinity do not mix. They are opposites. If you throw ice into
hot oil, what happens? The oil molecules expell the water. The two are not
compatible.
However,
I do agree that the people of these three faiths can come
together in semblance of peace and social unity in order to achieve many
goals such as curing hunger, wiping out illiteracy, struggling for social
justice, etc. These causes are not religion specific; any one from any
religion can work to solve these problems. Perhaps the "work"
that we do together can be the binding force. Three different religions
struggling for the same causes.
Though
we may never agree on theology, we must agree on what is best for this
world. I'm sure everyone has noticed how out of hand things have become.
in
faith,
Aasim
///
Answers to questions—pertaining to Jesus
From
Aaron 8-23-02
My friends
Peace
Now as I have reviewed the posts on "Questions
pertaining to Jesus—Prophet or God", that more often than not
challenge the correctness of some of the Christian doctrines, some very
interesting questions come into my mind. And because of this, I hope that
bringing this subject back for some additional discussion is acceptable?
Additionally, these comments will go along the same line as my post#19
(Questions pertaining to Jesus—Prophet or God)—to which no one has
been obliged to give any direct response thus far. So to re-start this
discussion, I refer to Jade’s hypothetical question and the Muslim’s
conclusions concerning the necessity of a sacrifice for sin.
This quote is taken from Jade’s post #5
(Questions pertaining to Jesus—Prophet or God)—"Dialogue between
myself and a Muslim.
C= myself [Jade]
N= Muslim
C= ...but the Christians say that their God or our
God is so loving that he sent his only son to die and by his blood we are
redeemed and forgiven.
N= Yes, but Allah has no need to go through the
process of the crucifiction. Allah has no need to send an innocent man to
die for other people sins... Allah just forgives a repentive person."
"Now I guess this goes on to another lengthy
subject, the crucifiction. The Muslim in the dialogue puts up a valuable
question in my opinion. God does not need to go through that process he
just simply forgives.
SO why did God send his Son?
What is the meaning behind the crucifiction?
Why did God go through this drawn out process when
he could have easily just forgiven man?
After reading the Christian accounts, something
just isn't adding up. Christians say, "he died for your sins."
WHy? I just don't understand it."
This logical conclusion that is given in the above
hypothetical situation is probably true with respect to the sovereignty of
God—for God Himself does not need a sacrifice of any sort. But since God
is in charge of everything, God also gets to set the rules. So then the
sacrificial system that we find described in the Holy Bible, is in fact
the system designed by the Creator God. With one specific aspect, the sin
offering, that God established as a cover for the sins of the creature.
This is not a question about what God needs to do or does not need to do.
But simply to say that it was God Himself who first established the
necessity for a sin sacrifice for the people.
Consequently, the first difficulty in this scenario
that comes to my mind, is the fact that the Muslim here in this discussion
seems to be questioning the Creator God concerning His established
sacrificial ordinances. What I mean by that, is the fact that the Muslims
are questioning the sacrificial laws that the Creator God Himself
established through Moses and the prophets. For example, a "sin
offering" for the sins of the people is specifically mentioned
ninety-one times in the Old Testament. Now this is what I fail to
understand. When God has so clearly established an ordinance that is so
frequently described in such precise detail in His Holy Bible, how anyone
would have the courage to judge it to be unnecessary? I am at a loss for
words! It would almost seem that the Muslims are saying that they know
more about these things than God does. They seem to be speaking for God
when they tell the world that this is what God wants or does not want. Or
that my way of worship is the only way to worship God. I would inquire of
the Muslims—by what authority have you determined God’s sacrificial
laws obsolete?
I guess it all comes down to our individual view of
the authenticity of the Holy Bible. Is God’s Holy Word something that we
can trust in for truth or not? Whenever we start to pick and choose which
Scriptures are accurate and which Scriptures are corrupted, I believe that
we are placing ourselves on very tenuous ground. Are Muslims really ready
to completely ignore God’s established sacrificial system? Are you sure
that you want to tell God that His sacrificial laws were /and are without
value and completely meaningless?
I would like to say this—the Christian doctrines
are simply declaring what the Holy Bible clearly states. The real issue
here, is our difference in the acceptance of the Holy Bible as the God
inspired factual truth concerning His universal reconciliation. And I can
see that there is a very serious downside here, in the fact that the
Muslims are trying to promote their own religion on the basis of the
corruptness and unreliability of the Christian’s Holy Bible rather than
their own authenticity. They would challenge the reliability of the Gospel
of John, the writings of the Apostles—especially Paul’s writings, and
anything pertaining to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. But
if we were to allow the Muslim’s prejudicial interpretation of the Holy
Bible to go unchallenged, there would be no Christian Church in existence
at all. That is, without the crucifixion—without the death, burial, and
resurrection of Jesus Christ, there is no Christian Church. And since
these principles do not require your approval, I can only suggest that the
Muslims simply accept these Christian doctrines as Christian doctrines.
Though I am very sorry if the Muslim’s religious perspectives seem to
conflict with Judaism or Christianity. I am presently constrained by the
Scriptures from going any further for now.
Though I have presented some of these passages from
Isaiah before in "YESHUA-MESSIAH of the Bible", I believe that
the plain language that is given here will guide all of us to more fully
understand God’s universal reconciliation. My Scriptural contention is
that Jesus the Christ is in fact the Arm of Jehovah.
"53
Who has believed our report? and to whom has the arm of Jehovah been
revealed? (Ref.Jn.12:38; Rom.10:16) 2For he grew up before him
as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: (Ref.Rom.15:12;
Isa.11:10; Rev.5:5; 22:16) he has no form nor comeliness; and when we see
him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3He was
despised and rejected of men; (Ref.Mk.8:31; Lu.9:22; 17:25) a man of
sorrows and acquainted with grief: as one from whom men hide their face;
he was despised and we esteemed him not. (Ref.Mk.10:33-34; Lu.18:31-33)
4Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, punished of God,
and afflicted. (Ref.Mat.8:17)"
By these passages, we understand that "the Arm
of Jehovah" was to have a human existence here on earth: He would
appear as an ordinary man who would know grief and be rejected by the
people.
We then come to the passages that describe the
reasoning behind the crucifixion of Jesus the Christ; YESHUA—MESSIAH;
the Arm of Jehovah:
"5But he was wounded for our
transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our
peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (Ref.1Pe.2:21-25) 6All
we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way;
and Jehovah has laid on him the iniquity of us all."
Yes, Jesus was to carry the full burden of the
creature’s sins—That, through His love for His creation "God has
laid on Him the iniquity of us all":
"7He was oppressed, yet when he was
afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his
mouth. (Ref.Jn.1:29; Rev.5:5-) 8By oppression and judgment he
was taken away; and as for his generation, who among
them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for
the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due? (Ref.Acts.8:32-33) 9And they made his grave with
the wicked, (Ref.Lu.22:37) and with a rich man in his death;
(Ref.Mat.27:57-60) although he had done no violence, neither was any
deceit in his mouth." (Ref.Lu.23:1-56)
With the clear words of these passages, how can
anyone argue that Jesus did not die upon that tree? God tells us that
Jesus was—
"a lamb that is led to the slaughter".
"cut off out of the land of the living for the
transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?"
"9And they made his grave with the
wicked, and with a rich man in his death."
"His death" my friends! To please
Jehovah, Jesus died for our sins! "You shall make his soul an
offering for sin", "and he shall bear their iniquities."
Listen to these words!
"10Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise
him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for
sin, he shall see his seed, he
shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his
hand. 11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and
shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant
justify many; (Ref.Mat.21:42; Mk.12:10; Lu.20:17) and he shall bear their
iniquities." (Ref.Rom.4:25; 1Cor.15:3; Heb.9:28; Isa.53:5)
We are clearly given Jehovah’s reason for
Jesus’ death—"10Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him;
he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for
sin". "by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant
justify many". "and he shall bear their iniquities."
Then these following passages do in fact describe
that necessary atonement that came from Christ’s sacrificial death for
the sins of creation:
"12Therefore will I divide him a
portion with the great, and he shall divide the plunder with the strong;
because he poured out his soul unto death, (Ref.Mat.26:38, 39, 42) and was
numbered with the transgressors: (Ref.Lu.22:37) yet he bare the sin of
many, (Ref.2Cor.5:21) and made intercession for the transgressors."
(Ref.Rom.8:34; Heb.7:5) Amen.
Then here in Isaiah chapter 54, we are given
prophetic insight into the universal character of God’s reconciliation.
I believe that the "barren" or the "desolate" would be
representative of the Nations, and that the "married wife" would
be representative of God’s first peoples Israel. God was predicting
something wonderful that was going to happen in His universal
reconciliation. This is how I see it from the perspective of God’s
universal reconciliation.
"54
Sing, O barren, you that did not bear; break forth into singing, and cry
aloud, you that did not travail with child: for more are the children of
the desolate than the children of the married wife, says Jehovah."
Here, I believe that God is referring just to His
very own children—to the corporate peoples of God that would ultimately
come from every kindred, tribe, tongue, and Nation. Then in preparation
for God’s universal reconciliation, we read—
"2Enlarge the place of your tent,
and let them stretch forth the curtains of your habitations; spare not:
lengthen your cords, and strengthen your stakes. 3For you shall
spread abroad on the right hand and on the left; and your seed shall
possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited."
These passages express God’s intent to
incorporate all of the Nations into His universal reconciliation—The
culmination and fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant.
"4Fear not; for you shall not be
ashamed: neither be confounded; for you shall not be put to shame: for you
shall forget the shame of your youth; and the reproach of your widowhood
shall you remember no more. 5For your Maker is your husband;
Jehovah of hosts is his name: and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer;
the God of the whole earth shall he be called."
Then once again we are given insight into the
plurality of our Creator God. As far as the Nations are concerned, the
Creator God—our Maker is our husband; "Jehovah of hosts is his
name". We are then told that "the Holy One of Israel is our
Redeemer; the God of the whole earth shall he be called." This is
always the clear message of the Christian Church.
God then turns His attention back to His first
peoples Israel:
"6For Jehovah has called you as a
wife forsaken and grieved in spirit, even a wife of youth, when she is
cast off, says your God. 7For a small moment have I forsaken
you; but with great mercies will I gather you. 8In
overflowing wrath I hid my face from you for a moment; but with
everlasting lovingkindness will I have mercy on you, says Jehovah your
(Israel’s) Redeemer. 9For this (Referring to Jehovah’s
commitment to His wife—Israel) is as the waters of Noah unto me; for as I have sworn that the waters
of Noah shall no more go over the earth, so have I sworn that I will not
be angry with you, nor rebuke you. 10For the mountains may
depart, and the hills be removed; but my lovingkindness shall not depart
from you, neither shall my covenant of peace be removed, says Jehovah that
has mercy on you."
I cannot even begin to grasp or express the
magnanimity of these promises that God has made to His first peoples
Israel. With all that has happened throughout the millennia’s, yet
God’s lovingkindness for Israel endures forever.
Now God describes His future promise for all of His
peoples:
"11O you afflicted, tossed with
tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will set your stones in fair colors,
and lay your foundations with sapphires. 12And I will make your
pinnacles of rubies, and your gates of carbuncles, and all your border of
precious stones. (Ref.Rev.21:18-20) 13And all your children
shall be taught of Jehovah; (Ref.Jn.6:45) and great shall be the peace of
your children. 14In righteousness shall you be established: you
shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear; and from terror, for
it shall not come near you. 15Behold, they may gather together,
but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against you shall fall
because of you. 16Behold, I have created the smith that blowes
the fire of coals, and brought forth a weapon for his work; and I have
created the waster to destroy. 17No weapon that is formed
against you shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against you in
judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of
Jehovah, and their righteousness which is of me, says
Jehovah." Amen.
Then in Isaiah 55, God further explains His
Covenant of Peace that He has made with the Nations of the world:
55
"Ho, every one that thirsts, come you to the waters, (Ref.Jn.4:14;
7:37) and he that has no money; come, buy and eat; yes, come, buy wine and
milk without money and without price. 2Why do you spend money
for that which is not bread? And why do you labor for that which satisfies
not? Hearken diligently unto me, and eat that which is good, and let your
soul delight itself in fatness. 3Incline your ear, and come
unto me; hear, and your soul shall live: and I will make an everlasting
covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. (Ref.Acts.13:34-41) 4Behold,
I have given him for a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander to
the peoples. (Ref.Ps.18:43) 5Behold, you shall call a nation
that you know not; and a nation that knew not you shall run unto you,
because of Jehovah your God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he has
glorified you."
Once again, we can observe God’s expanded
reconciliation that was to extend far beyond his first peoples Israel.
This unknown nation that is joined by God’s design to Israel, has
befriended Israel because of Jehovah and the Holy One of Israel: YESHUA—MESSIAH.
I believe that this would be representative of the natural alliance
between Judaism and Christianity.
Next, we see God further explaining His Covenant of
Grace that was facilitated during The Year of Jehovah’s Favor. It is God
Himself who is accomplishing His universal reconciliation—His
reconciling of the world: "6Seek Jehovah while he may be
found; call upon him while he is near: 7let the wicked forsake
his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto
Jehovah, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will
abundantly pardon. 8For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, says Jehovah. 9For as the
heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10For as the rain and the
snow comes down from heaven, and returns not there, but waters the earth,
and makes it bring forth and bud, and gives seed to the sower and bread to
the eater; 11so shall my word be that goes forth out of my
mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that
which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I have
sent it. 12For you shall go out with joy, and be led forth
with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into
singing; and all the trees of the fields shall clap their hands. 13Instead
of the thorn, shall come up the fir-tree; and instead of the brier, shall
come up the myrtle-tree: and it shall be to Jehovah for a name, for an
everlasting sign that shall not be cut off." (JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH) Amen.
Then dealing specifically with the crucifixion of
Jesus Christ, I believe that these passages from Psalm 22 are, as a clear
conformation for Isaiah 53, very convincing proofs for that special event.
I believe that Jesus is speaking here in the first person:
Psalm
22
"1My
God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Ref.Mat.27:46; Mk.15:34) Why
are you so far from helping me, and
from the words of my groaning? 2O my God, I cry in the
daytime, but you answer not; And in the night season, I am not silent. 3But
you are holy, O you that inhabit the praises of Israel. 4Our
fathers trusted in you: They trusted, and you did deliver them. 5They
cried unto you, and were delivered: They trusted in you, and were not put
to shame. 6But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and
despised of the people. 7All they that see me laugh me to
scorn: They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, (Ref.Mat.27:39;
Mk.15:29; Lu.23:35-38) saying, 8Commit
yourself unto Jehovah; Let him
deliver him: Let him rescue him, seeing he delights in him.
(Ref.Mat.27:43) 9But you are he that took me out of the womb;
you did make me trust when I was
upon my mother’s breasts. 10I was cast upon you from the
womb; you are my God since my mother bare me.
11Be not far from me; For
trouble is near; For there is none to help. 12Many bulls have
surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have circled round me. 13They
come upon me with their open mouth, As
a ravening and a roaring lion. 14I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax; It is melted
within me. 15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; And my
tongue clings to my jaws; And you have brought me into the dust of death. 16For
dogs have compassed me: A company of evil-doers have enclosed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. (Ref.Mat.27:35; Jn.20:25) 17I
may count all my bones; They look and stare upon me. 18They
part my garments among them, And upon my vesture do they cast lots. (Ref.Jn.19:24;
Lu.23:34)19But be not far off, O Jehovah: O you my succor, you
hurry to help me. 20Deliver my soul from the sword, My darling
from the power of the dog. 21Save me from the lion’s mouth;
yes, from the horns of the wild-oxen you have answered me.
22I will declare your name unto
my brethren: In the midst of the assembly will I praise you.
(Ref.Heb.2:12) 23You that fear Jehovah, praise him; All you the
seed of Jacob, glorify him; And stand in awe of him, all you the seed of
Israel. 24For he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction
of the afflicted; Neither has he hid his face from him; But when he cried
unto him, he heard. 25Of you comes my praise in the great
assembly: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. (Ref.Heb.12:22-24)
26The meek shall eat and be satisfied; They shall praise
Jehovah that seek after him: Let your heart live for ever. 27All
the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the
kindreds of the nations shall worship before you. 28For the
kingdom is Jehovah’s; And he is the ruler over the nations.
(Ref.Rev.11:15) 29All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and
worship: All they that go down to the dust shall bow before him, Even he
that cannot keep his soul alive. 30A seed shall serve him; It
shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. (Ref.1Pe.2:9; Mat.24:34;
Mk.13:30; Lu.21:32) 31They shall come and shall declare his
righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he has done it."
Amen. (RASV-1901)
Finally, I would say that all of these sighted
passages have considerable New Testament conformation and support—at
least from my own perspective and understanding. Your kind participation
here is greatly appreciated.
God’s truth does reign forever.
Aaron
THE HOLY TRINITY-Proofs
From Aaron-
For your information:
Post#19- From "Questions pertaining to
Jesus—Prophet or God"
Jade,
Greetings!
To go back to your original question. I think that
what Rick was saying early on—was that even we ourselves do not
completely understand this foundational doctrine of the Trinity that is
held by the Trinitarian segment of the Christian Church. If I am wrong in
this assumption, Rick will correct me.
As Rick has stated, the Triune nature of the
Godhead is not clearly taught in the Scriptures. But I believe that the
certain implication for it is there within many passages from the Bible.
Passages, of which I will, from my own perspective and understanding,
point to as selected examples.
My question is this—Does the Bible teach that our
Creator God has a plurality?
Gen.1:1 God—(‘elohim) is generally interpreted
as the plural form of the Creator God.
Gen.1:2 Is where we immediately receive insight
into a second attribute of God—it is the activity of "the Spirit of God".
Gen.1:26 God’s plurality is also evident when God
speaks of making man "in our
image, after our likeness".
Even though we will never completely comprehend the
in depth details of this plurality of the God of Creation, we should never
stop trying. We must never allow ourselves to ignore the Scriptural
reality of this Divine mystery.
Isa.48:16-17 speaks specifically of the plural
nature of God— "16Come near unto me, hear this; from the
beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there I
AM: and now (first) THE LORD
JEHOVAH has sent (second) ME
and (third) HIS SPIRIT. 17This says JEHOVAH, your REDEEMER,
the HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL: I am
Jehovah your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you by the way that
you should go." [And we all know that it is God’s Holy Spirit that
is always our teacher and guide.]
This question must be asked—can anyone contend
against the defined plurality of this passage from Isaiah? [There are
three distinct characteristics pictured here—(first)
THE LORD JEHOVAH, (second) ME, and (third) HIS SPIRIT. Yet we all
know that the LORD or God is one LORD.]
Isa.61:1-2 is the cornerstone passage for
Messiah’s stated ministry in the formation of the Covenant Christian
Church— "1The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me;
because Jehovah has anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he
has sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the
captives, and the opening of the
prison to them that are bound; 2to proclaim the year of
Jehovah’s favor," Then in Lu.4:18-19 Jesus openly stated that upon
His reading of this selected portion from Isaiah, that this ‘Year of
Jehovah’s Favor’ was being fulfilled in their hearing. That was the
very beginning of God's universal reconciliation-this present dispensation
of grace—the common Christian era.
Isa.63:8-14 as in Isa.53:1-12, we see the clear
picture of first—JEHOVAH,
second—HIS HOLY ARM (YESHUA-MESSIAH), and third—HIS
HOLY SPIRIT.
"8For he (Jehovah) said, Surely, they are my people, children that will not
deal falsely: so he was their
Saviour. 9In all their affliction He
was afflicted, and the Angel of
His presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them up, and carried them all the days of old. 10But they
rebelled, and grieved His Holy
Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and
himself fought against them. 11Then he remembered the days of
old, Moses and his people, saying,
Where is He that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his
flock? where is He that put His
Holy Spirit in the midst of them? 12that caused His
Glorious Arm to go at the right hand of Moses? that divided the waters
before them, to make himself an everlasting name?" Amen.
Isa.7:14/Mat.1:23 then clearly define Yeshua-Messiah—
"14Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign:
behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name
Immanuel." (Immanuel—God with us.) Ref. The Gospel of John.
I will not go into the numerous New Testament
proofs, because the New Testament more than confirms the above stated
facts and principles.
Then it is also understandable that if you reject
the Bible as being God’s inspired Holy Word, you will probably reject
these findings as well.
God’s grace and mercy is always near.
For your information:
Post#19- From "Questions pertaining to
Jesus—Prophet or God"
Jade,
Greetings!
To go back to your original question. I think that
what Rick was saying early on—was that even we ourselves do not
completely understand this foundational doctrine of the Trinity that is
held by the Trinitarian segment of the Christian Church. If I am wrong in
this assumption, Rick will correct me.
As Rick has stated, the Triune nature of the
Godhead is not clearly taught in the Scriptures. But I believe that the
certain implication for it is there within many passages from the Bible.
Passages, of which I will, from my own perspective and understanding,
point to as selected examples.
My question is this—Does the Bible teach that our
Creator God has a plurality?
Gen.1:1 God—(‘elohim) is generally interpreted
as the plural form of the Creator God.
Gen.1:2 Is where we immediately receive insight
into a second attribute of God—it is the activity of "the Spirit of God".
Gen.1:26 God’s plurality is also evident when God
speaks of making man "in our
image, after our likeness".
Even though we will never completely comprehend the
in depth details of this plurality of the God of Creation, we should never
stop trying. We must never allow ourselves to ignore the Scriptural
reality of this Divine mystery.
Isa.48:16-17 speaks specifically of the plural
nature of God— "16Come near unto me, hear this; from the
beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there I
AM: and now (first) THE LORD
JEHOVAH has sent (second) ME
and (third) HIS SPIRIT. 17This says JEHOVAH, your REDEEMER,
the HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL: I am
Jehovah your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you by the way that
you should go." [And we all know that it is God’s Holy Spirit that
is always our teacher and guide.]
This question must be asked—can anyone contend
against the defined plurality of this passage from Isaiah? [There are
three distinct characteristics pictured here—(first)
THE LORD JEHOVAH, (second) ME, and (third) HIS SPIRIT. Yet we all
know that the LORD or God is one LORD.]
Isa.61:1-2 is the cornerstone passage for
Messiah’s stated ministry in the formation of the Covenant Christian
Church— "1The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me;
because Jehovah has anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he
has sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the
captives, and the opening of the
prison to them that are bound; 2to proclaim the year of
Jehovah’s favor," Then in Lu.4:18-19 Jesus openly stated that upon
His reading of this selected portion from Isaiah, that this ‘Year of
Jehovah’s Favor’ was being fulfilled in their hearing. That was the
very beginning of God's universal reconciliation-this present dispensation
of grace—the common Christian era.
Isa.63:8-14 as in Isa.53:1-12, we see the clear
picture of first—JEHOVAH,
second—HIS HOLY ARM (YESHUA-MESSIAH), and third—HIS
HOLY SPIRIT.
"8For he (Jehovah) said, Surely, they are my people, children that will not
deal falsely: so he was their
Saviour. 9In all their affliction He
was afflicted, and the Angel of
His presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them up, and carried them all the days of old. 10But they
rebelled, and grieved His Holy
Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and
himself fought against them. 11Then he remembered the days of
old, Moses and his people, saying,
Where is He that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his
flock? where is He that put His
Holy Spirit in the midst of them? 12that caused His
Glorious Arm to go at the right hand of Moses? that divided the waters
before them, to make himself an everlasting name?" Amen.
Isa.7:14/Mat.1:23 then clearly define Yeshua-Messiah—
"14Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign:
behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name
Immanuel." (Immanuel—God with us.) Ref. The Gospel of John.
I will not go into the numerous New Testament
proofs, because the New Testament more than confirms the above stated
facts and principles.
Then it is also understandable that if you reject
the Bible as being God’s inspired Holy Word, you will probably reject
these findings as well.
God’s grace and mercy is always near.
Aaron