The Aaron Papers  www.the-aaron-papers.net 

Comments on a Muslim posting of “The True Sayings Of Jesus”

From Lewieke #2 7-5

If these would be the true sayings of Jezus, then the christians didn't just corrupt the Injil (as the Qur'an claims), but replaced it by a different text altogether. There are almost no similarities between the text you present here and the Gospels in the Bible.

From Riz #3

Salaam Sharif,

Thank you for posting that.

salaam

<****>

From Aaron #4

In response to your post question—"Could these words be the true teachings of Jesus son of Mary?" Considering the source and the motives that are involved, it would very doubtful.

Is it because the Muslims are so insecure in their relationship with God, that they have to attack and disprove the Holy Bible? Or is it because the Holy Bible contradicts the Quran? I still fail to understand why some Muslims spend so much time trying to disprove the legitimacy of Christianity. But then as you look at the whole process, it would more than appear that these constant attacks on Christianity and the Bible are intended to proselytize the unlearned of the flock.

I asked this question some time ago—"Does the Quran stand-up under the scrutiny of the Holy Bible?"

I must tell you that Christianity is not based on a few passages of Scripture that you might choose to pervert, but Christianity is based on the entire Holy Bible. Consequently, Christianity will always be Christianity, even if you were to make your own translation of the entire Holy Bible.

I would also like to repeat this important point concerning the inclusive character of the Abrahamic Covenant—"Judaism is Judaism, Christianity is Christianity, and Islam is Islam. They are not intended to be the same."

From Musa #5

Aaron

You seem to be an antagonist who has only one mission in life. That is to stop people from learning about the Bible, the Quran, and the religions of the world.

Why are you even involved in this community?

From Lewieke #6

Musa

You seem to be an antagonist who has only one mission in life. That is to convert all people to Islam.

Why are you even involved in this community?

From Musa #7 7-6

Lewieke

I am involved because I am interested in discussing the Abrahamic faiths in an intelligent way with the people who practice these religions. Every time I present some information about Christianity, I get such negative feedback that it is disturbing. I will continue to put info out there because I know that someone in this community will find it just as interesting and enlightening as I do. For reasons I do not know about, you obviously have something to fear when it comes to receiving knowledge that you previously did not know.

From Hassan #8

Dear Aaron, Lewieke and others,

I am responding to Aaorns reply, "

"Is it because the Muslims are so insecure in their relationship with God, that they have to attack and disprove the Holy Bible? Or is it because the Holy Bible contradicts the Quran? I still fail to understand why some Muslims spend so much time trying to disprove the legitimacy of Christianity. But then as you look at the whole process, it would more than appear that these constant attacks on Christianity and the Bible are intended to proselytize the unlearned of the flock. "

It is not Musa or any one trying to prove Christianity or Judaism wrong. Of course when there are mutual contradictions even on fundamental aspects, one should be able to address them objectively. Obviuosly all cannot be right. Muslims are never insecure because there is no reason to be. The reason why they present the Truth is because it is ordained by God Almighty. It is a duty of evey Muslim to carry this message. It is up to others to accept or reject.

Countless generations have passed by. Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, Solomon, Isaac,Ishmael, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, John the Baptist, Jesus & Mohammed [Peace be Upon Them All] were all great messengers of God. It is the same One & Only God Almighty Who sent them to mankind during different times, to different communities. Whenever messengers came, a section of the people accpeted and another rejected them.

Why did Jews reject Prophet Jesus [PBUH] when he came with clear signs and proof? Why did they accuse his Blessed mother Mary of being unchaste? People who call themselves Christians should ponder over the Bible that they have and try to understand the difference between God in the Old and New Testaments. Can God be different. He is the same Creator, Sustainer, Absolute, All Powerful Lord of the Universe. How suddenly He becomes part of the "Mystic" Trinity? Please try to seek that God earnestly, you will not go astray.

Why did Christians and Jews reject Prophet Mohammed[PBUH] when he came with clear signs and proof? Why did they say that he is an imposter, a false prophet? History repeats - a section of the people believed and a section refused to. It does not belittle God Almighty , neither does it affect His Messenger(s). That is why the Holy Qur'an asks the believers to :

Chapter 3 Verses 64 to 68

64. Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will)."

65. Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel Were not revealed till after him? Have ye no understanding?

66. Ah! Ye are those who fell to disputing (even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! But why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and ye who know not!

67. Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (which is Islám), and he joined not gods with Allah.

68. Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Prophet and those who believe: And Allah is the Protector of those who have faith.

This is the spirit with which the whole issue should be addressed. No one is trying to prove or disporve the others, but during the process of presenting the TRUTH, if it is bitter, neither the presenter nor the Creator is responsible. Every seeker of TRUTH should be sincere and right earnest.

Peace on all!

Hassan

From Lewieke #9 7-7

Musa:

"Every time I present some information about Christianity, I get such negative feedback that it is disturbing."

You're not just presenting information about Christianity; you're trying to disprove Christianity. If I was trying to disprove Islam all the time, I'd get negative feedback as well.

From Aaron #10

Hassan

Peace

To begin, I would agree with Lewieke—If Christians were to attack Islam and the Quran in the same manner as the Muslims attack Christianity and the Bible, we would never hear the end of it. I am sure that you would like me to tell you how wrong you have been, and what the Quran really says. Now to me, that would be just as preposterous as it is for a Muslim to try to tell me what the Bible really says.

I realize that I loose my patience, and probably say many things that are not becoming of one of God’s peoples. So please forgive me for my many failures.

Hassan, I have presented many postings that fully answer your question concerning the Jews and this dispensation of the Gospel—read the six parts of ISRAEL-the peoples of God.

I have also tried to promote the inclusive character of the Abrahamic Covenant—That it includes Judaism, Christianity, and Islam as the progeny of Ishmael. Then with that, I believe that I said that these three religions are not intended to be the same.

And what have I received in return for my effort? Nothing but disparaging comments from the Muslims concerning how corrupt the Holy Bible is and how ignorant all Christians are. As I am sure that it is obvious to most of you, I really have difficulty ignoring all of the misinformation concerning Christianity that is posted on this forum. So I will repeat this once again: The Holy Bible is not corrupt! And Christians are not ignorant! Personally, I find it very presumptive of a Muslim to try to tell a Christian what they should believe. I honestly believe that those who really understand true Christianity are all a part of the Christian Church. All of this defending makes it very hard to maintain a peaceable attitude on this forum, so please forgive me if I have offended anyone.

In demonstration of what we believe, I have presented this saying before—Hear O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD. Amen.

Sincerely

Aaron

From Musa #11

a Muslim to try to tell me what the Bible really says.

Aaron

Are you suggesting that Muslims are not allowed to read and learn about the Bible? Or are you implying that a person who reverts back to Islam from Christianity should forget everything they learned?

Why can' t factual information be just that whether or not the person presenting it is Muslim, Jew or Christian?

You constantly make statements like "I believe that I said that these three religions are not intended to be the same. "

We all agree to that. One important fact you seem to refuse to accept is that Muslims believe that the prophets that introduced and exist in each faith's books were indeed practicing the SAME religion.

Comments such as "disparaging comments from the Muslims concerning how corrupt the Holy Bible is and how ignorant all Christians are." are generalizations and are dangerous. If you are constantly on the defensive then we cannot share anything but contempt for one another.

Aaron, your comment " I really have difficulty ignoring all of the misinformation concerning Christianity that is posted on this forum" is a good sign (sort of).

I have never presented misinformation concerning Christianity. I always provide references that you can verify in any book or source you have.

The Holy Bible is not corrupt!

Then what do you call the contradictions? Typos?

I honestly believe that those who really understand true Christianity are all a part of the Christian Church.

Does this include in your opinion, the Catholic priests who have been making the headlines?

////

From Musa #12

Lewieke says to Musa:

You're not just presenting information about Christianity; you're trying to disprove Christianity
 

This allegation is simply untrue. The purest definition of Christianity is that it is the religion that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ the son of Mary. Trust me, I have no desire to disprove Jesus' teachings. As a matter of fact I would love to know what he really said as would any other person who wanted to increase their knowledge about God.

If you or any other Christian on this board really believe that the information I present is incorrect then why not address it specifically instead of skating around the issue? Am I not worthy of accepting your religion as my own?

If you have something to share or if you possess some knowledge that I have not considered then why not share it with me and the rest of the world? Does that go against your beliefs as well?

Regarding you statement towards me I have one last question for you: Could you present anything that would disprove Islam if that was your will (I know it is not)?

From Isk #13

'Muslims believe that the prophets that introduced and exist in each faith's books were indeed practicing the SAME religion.'

This is precisely what is keeping you from appreciating the differences.

'The purest definition of Christianity is that it is the religion that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ the son of Mary. Trust me, I have no desire to disprove Jesus' teachings. As a matter of fact I would love to know what he really said ...'

What Jesus said is all in the New testament gospels and in the teachings of the Christian church. Look at the historical documents as evidence if you wish to learn about Jesus. There is no 'long lost true Injil', that is just fantasy. Why cling to something which simply doesn't exist?

From Musa #14

Why cling to something which simply doesn't exist?

Do you have any proof that I can refer to that would support your claims?

From Isk #15 7-8

Do you have any proof that I can refer to that would support your claims?

The existence of the New Testament as a reliable historical witness to the life and teachings of Jesus and his followers; and the total abscence of any other authentic 'Injil', besides that in the NT.

Or do you want to go on searching for another 150 years for Darwin's missing link fossils?

From Lindsey #16

Sharif- I've been on another board where New Testament Apocrypha (specifically the Gospel of Thomas) are being discussed, so I found your post interesting. I've recently developed an interest in this topic and I've heard of a text called "The Sayings of Jesus" before, but hadn't read what it said yet. Of course a lot of the apocryphal books were excluded for good reason- many were written in the early middle ages and passed off as much older, but some do seem to have been excluded for doctrinal reasons, or simply weren't widely known about in the 4th century. As to the text you quote here, I don't know anything at all about it's origins, but I'll look it up. Where was it found? How old is the oldest known extant copy of it?

From Lindsey #17

Musa- Actually I would say that there is moe to Christianity than just followig the teachings of Jesus, trying to live by His example, etc. A belief in His divinity & in the resurrection is kind of a prerequisite in all Christian denominations I've ever heard of, so we DO differ from Islam on that.

From Lewieke #18

"If you or any other Christian on this board really believe that the information I present is incorrect then why not address it specifically instead of skating around the issue?"

Musa, I don't mind you pointing at what you believe to be errors in Christianity. I do mind, however, that this seems to be almost the only thing that you do on this forum. You yourself once said that it is your goal to 'save' the Christians and the Jews on this forum, but that's not what this forum is meant for.

"Could you present anything that would disprove Islam if that was your will?"

Yes, I could. It's not very difficult to find contradictions in the Qur'an, for example. There might be less contradictions than in the Bible, but then the Qur'an is much shorter. Anyway, I've presented some information that could disprove certain islamic claims in another thread ('Apostacy in Christianity'). I never did this before, because I thought it was a rude thing to do and not in accordance with the objectives of this forum.

From Cornelia #19

Aaron, thank you.

Musa, God convict you.

The feeling I got, when reading the original message and supposed translation of Jesus' words, was that there too much humanisn put into a translation of some questionable text. Not worthy of note. Oh, by the way, Jesus was a carpenter by trade, the trade of his earthly father, Joseph.

<****>

From Aaron #23 7-9

Musa

Peace

I am simply saying that this attempt by Muslims to pervert and undermine Christianity and the Holy Bible is insulting to most Christians on this forum. I have answered you concerning this matter before. My contention is exactly as I stated— It is preposterous for a Muslim to try to tell me what the Bible really says. I say this because the Bible is a Spiritual document and can only be Spiritually discerned. So for us to discern and understand the deep things of God, we must have a Spiritual enlightenment that comes only from God. Even now there are many hidden mysteries that remain concealed within the Bible—unknown to any human being. So then just because one might read the Bible, that does not necessarily mean that that one understand the complexities of the Bible. Just because you find someone who makes a contradictory interpretation of the Bible does not make the Bible a contradiction. So then just because you happen to say that this or that is what something means, does not automatically make your statement correct.

The problem that I see for Muslims is that of creditability and ulterior motives. Your creditability is questionable because of your ulterior motives. It would more that seem that the legitimacy of Islam depends on your demonstrating the corruptness and illegitimacy of Judaism, Christianity, and the Bible.

As you wrote—"One important fact you seem to refuse to accept is that Muslims believe that the prophets that introduced and exist in each faith's books were indeed practicing the SAME religion."

We might worship the same Creator God, but we do not practice the same religion. It is as I said before-Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are not intended to be the same!

I think that I do understand what you Muslims believe, but I would respectfully disagree with your oversimplification of God’s universal reconciliation. And then this would go back to your ulterior motives.

There is an evident difference in peoples that is clearly defined in the Old Testament book of Genesis. Then from my limited understanding of the Old Testament, and you can correct me if I am wrong, the religion of Isaac and the religion of Ishmael were not intended to be the same. That is, the intended path that each of these sons of Abraham was to take was completely different.

You then quoted me—The Holy Bible is not corrupt! Writing—"Then what do you call the contradictions? Typos?"

NO, IGNORANT INTERPRETATIONS OF THE SCRIPTURES!

My defensive posture is the result of constantly responding to these negative attacks that the Muslims make against the Bible and Christianity. Would you have me just sit back and say nothing? To do that, I would need to leave this site.

Then in response to your final comment: All of God’s peoples, no matter what their religion or transgression might be, are responsible and accountable only to God.

Ref.post#20—Musa, You should not let the differences in Christianity mislead you. The contradictory differences are not to be seen as weaknesses, but as the strengths of Christianity. Even with all of the evident freedom (free will) that the Christian Church was given through Jesus Christ, yet God has chosen to graciously continue with them in all of their stumbling.

Once again, I do apologize if I have offended anyone.

Sincerely

Aaron

From Musa #24

Can any Christian on this forum tell me what I should call these discrepencies (besides a vicious attack on the Bible)?:

II Samuel 8:4 "And David took from him a thousand chariots and seven hundred horsemen, and twenty thousan footmen..."

I Chronicles 18:4 "And David took from him a thousand chariots and seven thousand horsemen and twenty-thousand footmen"

AND

John 5:37 "Ye have neither heard his [God's] voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

John 14:9 ". . .he that hath seen me hath seen the Father. . ."

Your creditability is questionable because of your ulterior motives.

I should have credibility since I was a Christian who studied the Bible. Now I am a Muslim who studies the Quran and the Bible. My motives include a desire to interact with Christians and Jews to better understand why we claim to worship the same God but we have difficulty communicating properly.

From Isk #27

II Samuel 8:4 & I Chronicles 18:4

So what! David went out to battle and he had a few divisions with him. Are you going to convict God of perjury for that! Look at what was important in the story, not the peripheral details....

AND

John 5:37 & John 14:9

That's a different kettle of fish. It's bound up with the nature of God, specifically, as we Christians see it, the trinitarian nature of God. But let's settle for starters, a paradox is not a contradiction, it's just something that you haven't understood yet. It could be like size, little and big. I thought I had a small dog, until I met a Great Dane. Or, I though t I had a large dog, until I met a chihuahua. Then I cam to realise that my dog is really very average. It was just how I was looking at him. Likewise, when I saw Jesus, I just saw a man, like any other. But when I got to know him, I found out that there was more too him than that......

From Musa #31 7-10

Factoid:

In 1951 thirty-two scholars of the highest eminence, backed by 50 cooperating denominations stated that the King James Version of the Bible has grave defects and they were so many and so serious that it called for a revision. So they produced the RSV or Revised Standard Version of the Bible. They threw out the famous verse John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son"

Muslims did not do it, Christians did. They threw out that and other verses as interpolations or fabrications imposed upon Christiandom.

From Isk #32

They threw out the famous verse John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son"

Not so my friend. I have an RSV and it has still got that verse in there.

From Aaron #45 7-22-02

Musa

So in your opinion—because the Holy Bible is not compatible with the Quran, you have determined that the Holy Bible is corrupted. WRONG!!! From my perspective, I believe that you have things backwards since the Holy Bible was around long before the Quran came into existence. As I have properly asked this question before—Is the Quran compatible with the writings of the Holy Bible? I have also tried to communicate this thought—I believe that to the majority of Christians it matters very little what you might think of the Holy Bible, of Jesus, or any other doctrine of the Christian Church. That is, your unsolicited criticisms are irrelevant. As you are free to believe in whatever you want to believe in, I would respectively ask you to stick to that and to leave what I believe in alone. All I can say is that I am very sorry that you were not able to come to a clear understanding of Christianity.

Sincerely